From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:02:39 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:02:21 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:40:51 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Co. Alksnis on Nightline Message-Id: <1991Aug21.203539.2812@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:35:39 GMT References: <1991Aug21.044151.2414@unixland.natick.ma.us> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 133 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.044151.2414@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes: >The so-called "dark colonel," Col. Viktor Alksnis, appeared on ABC-TV's >Nightline news program this morning. [...] >Anyway ... if you saw an earlier posting about Col. Alksnis, you know that >he outlined a program in a magazine article that called for a state of >emergency for six months at least to restore order in the Soviet Union, >among other things. > >Well, tonight he said that the disruption of the signing of the new union >treaty was a "positive" step because it preserved the USSR. However, when >asked if he endorsed the new committee, he said this committee differed >from HIS plan because his plan required a committee to be set up by >constitutional means, by the Supreme Soviet. He believes action by the >Soviet legislature is still needed to give this committee legitimacy. This wimpishness by one of the "black colonels" is very significant. There was a similar interview by the Australian (ethnic) Special Broadcasting Service, probably later than the ABC interview, which showed this fascist rat trying to distance himself even further from the coup. He was asked why Yeltsin had not been deposed as President of Russia. He replied that Yeltsin was legally elected and had Parliamentary immunity from arrest, even though his proclamations were "destabilizing" etc. (Translation: Alksnis hopes his own parliamentary immunity will keep him out of gaol) He was then asked how Yeltsin as President of Russia could be immune when Gorbachev had been deposed as President of the USSR. He replied that the emergency committee had a written statement from Gorbachev that he had resigned due to ill health, so it was not a matter of deposing or arresting him (which would be illegal). He was then asked whether he expected anyone either in the Soviet Union or outside it to seriously believe that. He replied that it might well turn out that Gorbachev had been forced to resign, nevertheless the emergency committee did claim to have that piece of paper. I think this sheds a lot of light on the irresolute character of the coup (which doomed it from the start, although its fate was not sealed until it became clear that Leningrad and other centers would resist and the army was unable to enter Leningrad). The junta considered it necessary to offer its supporters a legal figleaf so that if the coup failed they could pretend that they had only been following the orders of what they believed to be the legally constituted authority. This implies that they were weak from the start, and preferred to make defeat virtually certain rather than ask their supporters to risk all. This seemingly absurd approach resembles the earlier coup in the Baltics in which the emergency committees simply faded away when Gorbachev failed to back them. Those responsible were NOT arrested and punished then and they hope to retain their entrenched positions in the Ministry of Defence, KGB and elsewhere this time too, after having mounted an even more serious armed demonstration or show of force. There are reports that Shevardnadze has said he "hoped Gorbachev was the victim, not the instigator". Given the Byzantine character of Soviet politics it will probably be a while before the full circumstances become clear. But the uncharacteristically resolute stand taken by the democrats this time makes it look as though the whole thing was grotesquely miscalculated. >From the start, Yeltsin took the high ground as legally constituted and democratically elected authority, declaring the emergency committee illegal and ordering all Union military and KGB forces on Russian territory to accept his temporary command until the constitutional Union authorities could be restored. This while the Western press and Western Governments were initially treating the coup as a fait accompli and discussing their future relations with the "new leadership" (and similar reactions in this newsgroup). Having initially characterized the junta as "state criminals" and ordered the prosecution of anyone following their orders, Yeltsin maintained that position consistently in demanding their arrest when they fled from the Kremlin. Whatever "compromise" the junta was hoping for when they refrained from the resolute measures necessary for a coup to succeed, they were offered no compromise whatever and now face humiliating defeat. As I said when the coup started (and was thought by most to have ended), it is to be hoped that the democrats will proceed to ARREST supporters of the coup. However there is STILL an ambiguous situation regarding both the Army and the KGB and it still remains to be seen whether they will or will not be thoroughly purged this time. The Ministry of Defence accepted orders from the junta and refused to accept Yeltsin's decree. But when the crunch came (perhaps after events in Leningrad already established that the coup would be defeated or could only result in full scale civil war if continued), they did NOT open fire on the people and thus compelled the junta to abandon the coup and flee. Thus there is a situation a bit similar to the Phillipines where Aquino came to power as a result of the Army top brass rallying to her side rather than by defeating it. Although there are important differences (e.g. there is no parallel to the U.S. backing Marcos and then shifting that backing to Aquino, and the Soviet Union is not a U.S. neocolony like the Phillipines) it is quite possible that important elements of the Army and KGB will retain their positions in the new regime. Aquino was subjected to a further series of coups and coup threats and things have still not entirely settled down. If the democrats fail to thoroughly purge their opponents in the most ruthless ("Stalinist" :-) way there will be continuing problems. Yeltsin's stand offers some hope that they will take the necessary measures, but it remains to be seen what Gorbachev will do. Also there was a very strong emphasis on "Constitutionalism" in Yeltsin's position (and in U.S. and other Western support) whereas what is really needed is at LEAST the kind of revolutionary ruthlessness that allowed Abraham Lincoln to tell the Supreme Court where to get off when he was conducting a civil war. After all Alknis DOES have Parliamentary immunity and DOES belong in gaol. Likewise if a proper legal defence of MOST of the Ministry of Defence and KGB people is permitted they SHOULD be acquitted on grounds of reasonable doubt as to whether they were participating in a treasonable conspiracy or carrying out the orders of what appeared to be the properly constituted Government after Gorbachev's "resignation". Who is a Ministry of Defence or KGB official to believe about the President's health - his own Vice-President, Prime Minister and other Cabinet members or some ranting provincial politician like Yeltsin? Clearly what is required is prompt incarceration rather than legal proceedings, but whether our "anti-Stalinist" colleagues have the stomache for it remains to be seen. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:03:21 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:03:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:41:00 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!emory!att!cbnewsm!cbnewsk!markg From: markg@cbnewsk.att.com (mark.r.gibaldi) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-Id: <1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:45:35 GMT References: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Lines: 33 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes: > >-- as reported by the Finnish TV 10 minutes ago (15.00 GMT) ---- > (interesting news info deleted) > >The apparent reason for the coup not to have succeeded seems to >be the nonviolent but firm opposition of the civilans and the >Russian parliament, with Boris Yeltsin at the center. The victims >of last night have reinforced the opposition. It would seem to me to be a combination of many things, one of the more important being the reluctance of the military to use force. Has anyone noticed in the CNN reports from Tuesday night (usa) that those soldiers standing outside the disabled troop carrier seemed surprisingly reluctant to use their weapons. I say that relative to how easily they have used them in the Baltics. Not to mention the many reports of military units refusing to obey orders to go on the offensive. The other two major causes of the coup failure (in my opinion) would seem to be the very talented Political manuvering done by Yeltsin, and the support given by the Soviet populace to the anti-coup faction. ** This is my opinion and you are still quite welcome to your own. ** ** all flames via e-mail please ** Mark R. Gibaldi BELL LABS Internet: mrg@cblph.att.com or 70531,1170.compuserve.com CompuServe : 70531,1170 From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:03:53 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:03:36 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:41:06 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!ukc!ox-prg!oxuniv!tgma From: tgma@vax.oxford.ac.uk Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: It's all over! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.150808.1545@vax.oxford.ac.uk> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:08:07 GMT Organization: Oxford University VAXcluster Lines: 17 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Great news! I have just heard on the BBC that TASS has made an announcement that all troops are to leave Moscow. The junta are apparently en route for Kirghizia, and Lukyanov, Ivashko, Rutsko, Silayev and Western diplomats are on a plane to the Crimea to visit Gorbachev, apparently in excellent health. I think we all knew that this coup would end, but I only hoped it might end this soon. What next? My guess is some sort of interim govt, leading to a new Union Treaty. I also believe that the only way that Gorbachev coul become President again would be by direct Universal election, which is not all that likely, although Yeltsin might not stand against him. Right now all we can do is give thanks that it is all over Tom Adshead St Antony's College Oxford England From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:04:32 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:04:14 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:41:36 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!brunix!cgy From: cgy@cs.brown.edu (Curtis Yarvin) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of the Coup) Message-Id: <83876@brunix.UUCP> Date: 22 Aug 91 01:41:41 GMT References: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> <1991Aug22.005335.520@agate.berkeley.edu> Sender: brunix!news Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science Lines: 41 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug22.005335.520@agate.berkeley.edu> jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) writes: >In article , tym@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au (Tim MacKenzie) writes: >|> It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are >|> actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin). >|> It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and >|> extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free. >|> >|> Either the men who were (apparently) organising the Coup were rather >|> disorganised, or there were other organisers who intended the Coup to >|> fail in order to boost their (inter)national standing. > >Oh, bullshit. > >If Gorby and Yeltsin organized the coup, and the whole thing was a fake, >please tell me how they recruited the committee. How did they get a >group of men at the very top of the bureaucracy to, in effect, toss away >their careers for the life in prison or death by firing squad that >probably awaits them? But no, you see; it's a little more complicated than that. Gorbachev didn't conspire with the Gang of Eight, he manipulated them. Pasty white fingers playing them like marionettes, drawing the hardliners into a trap of his own making to choke like fish in a barrel. And a pleasant four-day weekend in sunny Sevastopol, too. The master politician, the King-Hell Bureaucrat of All Time, strikes again; mate in twenty-six. Genghis Khan, Gary Kasparov, Lee Atwater: the greatest strategists of the millennium barely fit to taste the hot dust on his bootlaces. If you believe it all, that is. Either Misha's the last-god of political windsurfing, the edge of his unsinkable Soviet surfboard dipping into the trough of one towering whitecap only to thrust him skyward with tremendous popular momentum over the next giant wave, or he's a happy-faced but indecisive klutz whose rickety old junk, caught between two savage typhoons without the steam to evade either, has finally started to feel the water bursting through the seams of its hitherto-inexhaustible holdful of luck. I'll reserve my judgment; your mileage may vary. But I wonder if the Soviet power ladder of vicious bureaucratic backbiting brings stronger men to the top than the American system of feel-good soundbites. c From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:05:08 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:04:49 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:42:13 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!neat.cs.toronto.edu!quoctp From: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Putsch or coup? Message-Id: <91Aug21.225929edt.6154@neat.cs.toronto.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 02:59:39 GMT References: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> <38372@mimsy.umd.edu> <1991Aug21.221546.3250@newshost.anu.edu.au> Organization: University of Toronto Lines: 46 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.221546.3250@newshost.anu.edu.au> cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) writes: > >I just LOVE the way the mass media and Western heads of Government >enthuse over mass movements bringing down "reactionary regimes" >through action on the streets. They sang a different tune when >similar mass action on the streets overthrew de Gaulle's >Government in France and helped defeat U.S. aggression against >Vietnam in the late 1960s and early 1970s. No doubt they >.... I'm not sure which mass action on the streets you're referring to. Thanks the so-called peace demonstration in the U.S., the Vietnamese communists could have a free hand in taking over a country and wrecking it with their stupid ideology. Wake up, Albert! Do you know that the victors in Vietnam are the most hardline communists in the world? Even now they're still clinging to Communism whereas their former bosses have to admit that it's corrupt and unworkable. And they succeeded in taking over Vietnam not by "mass movements" but by tanks, artillery, etc... Every time they took over city people tried to flee the other way. And when they took over the whole country, everyone tries to leave! > >Of course it suits anti-Communists in the West to call those regimes >"Communist" and "hardline" more often than they admit to them being >"right-wing" (and in fact it was quite surprising for Bush to make >that admission). One can hardly blame anti-Communists for taking >advantage of the fact that these fascist thugs DO dress up in >red stars and hammer and sickle emblems and claim to be Communist. > So how do you classify the current regime in Vietnam? > >It is understandable that most democrats in the Soviet Union >hate Lenin, Stalin and Communism bitterly, since their oppressors >are said to be Leninists, Stalinists and Communists. But as I have >argued in another message, they will have to act with at least >some of the ruthlessness of Lenin and Stalin to SUPPRESS their >opponents if they want an end to the slavish legacy of servility >that has allowed such creeps as the Brezhnevites to stultify the >and for the people shall not perish from this earth". > Ah! You've been reading too much of that Marxist rubbish. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:05:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:05:25 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:42:35 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ulrik!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!helena!steven From: steven@helena ( Steve Novak #3000 x2110 ) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.202152.10232@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:21:52 GMT References: <35130@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.112703.23958@granite.ma30.bull.com> <1991Aug21.150540.6648@convex.com> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 42 Nntp-Posting-Host: helena.uswest.com Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO > = (Mike Tighe) writes: >> = (Dennis Rivard) writes: >>Has anyone noticed that many of the people that are now saying "If we >>had only helped him more, this wouldn't have happened" are the same >>ones that said "We shouldn't help them until we see more reforms"???? I have no idea what Dennis' point is; I've heard no public figure that has said anything close to this. I *did* hear Bush Monday rather testily defending his lack of assistance to Gorbachev at their fruitless summit. >I also notice that they are the same ones that say we shouldn't meddle into >the internal affairs of other countries, at least when those other >countries are El Salvador, Nicaragua, Grenada, Phillipines, Nam, etc. But >the USSR is different... I'm glad you recognize that. The USSR, of course, was/is trying to be a fledgling democracy, and *begged* for *financial* assistance to sustain their economy and keep their people happy while Gorbachev and the other progressives tried to keep things moving. Every country Tighe mentions was supplied with arms up the wazoo by the U.S., which arms were then used to subjugate, tyrannize and terrorize their people. I don't know why Tighe mentions the Phillipines; we did shit to get Marcos out, and we've done shit to help real democracy (again) get a good foothold. We gave tyrant Marcos and his bimbo wife ASYLUM, fer chrissakes. Let's not forget the BILLIONS in *U.S. taxpayer* money that that asshole ripped off. The U.S.'s job in the Phillipines, like the USSR and China in '89, is puzzling in its seeming attempt to *stifle*, rather than nurture, genuine democracy. -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Steve Novak | | "Nothing to do to save his life..." | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ steven@uswat.USWest.Com From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:06:21 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:05:59 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:43:18 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ulrik!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!wam.umd.edu!xenon From: xenon@wam.umd.edu (Puff the Fractal Dragon) Newsgroups: relcom.politics,talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Translations needed! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.211730.28457@wam.umd.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 21:17:30 GMT References: <20AUG199113355475@quark2.aero.org> Sender: xenon@avw.umd.edu Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Lines: 15 Nntp-Posting-Host: avw Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Keywords: I am working on translating some of these reports right now. Unfortunately its very difficult to do so without the Russian fonts. Its very hard to read Russian with the Roman alphabet. I will repost as fast as possible. Paul A. Allulis ZZ -- Joe Gruessing, University of Maryland at College Park, College of Electrical Engineering From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:06:55 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:06:37 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:43:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!apple!ig!oberlin.bitnet!SKS2454 From: SKS2454@oberlin.bitnet ("Acme Industrial Heavy Objects, Inc.") Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: LIVE from the USSR, Day 3 Message-Id: <28A9E8D0E2DF000916@OBERLIN.BITNET> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:42:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 41 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO August 21 Vremya highlights: -Gorbachev announces that he is in charge and in full control of the situation; he has talked with Yeltsin, Nazarbaev (Kazakhstan), Karimov (Uzbekistan), Kravchuk (Ukraine), and Dementiev (Belorussia) and they are in full support of him; perpetrators of the coup will be held responsible; General Moiseev has been ordered to pull troops out of Moscow; Gorbachev and Bush have talked by phone and will keep in touch -the Ministry of Defense has announced that troops will return to base -barricades are coming down in Moscow -curfew repealed in Moscow -the Supreme Soviet of the RSFSR met today, with Yeltsin thanking everyone for their help; a delegation has been sent to Faros to meet with Gorbachev; people's deputies warned people to stay sharp and watch for any signs of another coup attempt -the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet passed a resolution 1) declaring the attempt to depose Gorbachev illegal 2) demanding Yanaev repeal all decrees as illegal from the moment of issuance 3) founding an investigative committee; prosecution has already begun -foreign ambassadors were invited to fly to Gorbachev's residence by Silaev, Prime Minister of the RSFSR, but they missed the plane -advisors to Gorbachev said Gorbachev was presented with the decree on the state of emergency, but he refused to sign it -Tizikov (sp?), a member of the Committee of Eight, was fired from his post as chairman of the Union of Directors of Enterprises, Transport, Construction, and Railroads -Bessmertnykh said foreign policy would remain constant; he said he was on vacation when the coup took place and could not respond because he was sick [editorial chuckle :-) hee hee hee] -Lukyanov was criticised for not calling a meeting of the Supreme Soviet sooner than August 26 -Shcherbakov talked with Gorbachev, who is quite healthy -US Ambassador Strauss arrived in Moscow There were also reports from Alma-Ata, Belorussia, Leningrad, Uzbekistan, Baku, Vilnius, Tallinn, Barnaul, and Kemerovo implying that things were pretty much under control, although tanks were still hanging out in Tallinn. Karen Segar sks2454@oberlin sks2454@ocvaxa.cs.oberlin.edu From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:07:32 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:07:15 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:43:47 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!ukc!axion!tharr!conrad From: tharr!conrad (Conrad Longmore) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Thanks Message-Id: <2569@tharr.UUCP> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:15:55 GMT Reply-To: tharr!conrad (Conrad Longmore) Organization: Public access to Usenet in the UK Lines: 16 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Thanks to all those brave people in the Soviet Union, especially those netlanders at DEMOS and other sites for stopping the world slipping back into the cold war and darkness. Latest: ITN reports at 2115 GMT/2215 BST & CET: Yeltsin warns of possible last-ditch special forces attack on Russian Parliament. -- // Conrad Longmore / Email: conrad @ tharr.uucp // === There are === // // Bedford College / Janet: tharr!conrad @ uk.ac.ukc // === more than === // //-----------------/ Uucp: ..!ukc!axion!tharr!conrad // === 12 states === // // ** T H A R R ** /---------------------------------// === in Europe === // // +44 234 841503 / Free access to Usenet in the UK // === --------- === // From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:08:05 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:07:47 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:44:55 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!think.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!sat!lmb From: lmb@sat.com (Larry Blair) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Coup? What coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.214504.25244@sat.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 21:45:04 GMT Organization: SAT Corp., Sunnyvale, CA Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Pretty slick, that Gorbachev. In one fell swoop he eliminated his old guard opposition, renewed his popular backing, and made a saint out of his `opponent' (who happens to have the same aims). Even the Baltic republics are sounding more conciliatory. Check and mate! If you doubt any of this, consider how head of the KGB, the army, and the Supreme Soviet (all of whom were never actually seen) could be stupid enough to run a coup so disorganized that they didn't even bother to arrest their prime opponent before taking over. -- Larry Blair lmb@sat.com {apple,decwrl}!sat!lmb From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:08:41 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:08:24 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:45:27 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Message-Id: <1991Aug21.223550.3398@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:35:50 GMT References: Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 10 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article dimitri@inzer.demos.su writes: > > WE WON !!! > Congratulations Dimitri and all of you. Your courage is admired. "Ding, dong the witch is dead." (But PLEASE don't let the munchkins celebrations delay arresting her sister ;-) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:09:17 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:08:56 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:45:49 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!unido!tpki!olaf From: olaf@tpki.toppoint.de (Olaf Schlueter) Newsgroups: eunet.politics Subject: Re: Coup in the Soviet Union Message-Id: <10573@tpki.toppoint.de> Date: 21 Aug 91 14:46:47 GMT References: <1991Aug19.150828.14923@ida.liu.se> <12437@castle.ed.ac.uk> Distribution: eunet Organization: Toppoint Mailbox e.V., Kiel, BRD Lines: 52 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO own@castle.ed.ac.uk (O Morgan) writes: >In article <1991Aug19.150828.14923@ida.liu.se> uda@ida.liu.se (Ulf Dahlen) writes: >>The coup in the Soviet Union is really shocking! Did anyone of you >>expect this now? And the way it happened? >Yes I agree it's shocking, but it might have positive effects. IMHO >something had to happen in the USSR, because it would (will) be >cataclismic if the country is allowed to slide in the economic morass as >was happening under Gorbachev. I don't have exact figures, but you hear >of economic contractions of 10% in 6 months, the food distribution >structures to the towns having brocken down, etc... , and the president >doing nothing other than trying to consolidate his (slipping) grip on >power. Sometimes history seems to move faster than news. As I'm writing this, news consolidate, that the few remaining persons of the commitee did escape from Moscow, that the red army is returning into their barracks, that the coup has failed. How this will go on, who knows. Probably Jelzin is now the man of the future. I think, the first positive outcome is, that the big group of conservative communists has lost much of his power, and will no longer be able to slow down perestroika almost to a stand-still. It has been always questionable whether Gorbachev has been hesitating because he did not believe in drastic changes or whether he had not enough power to overrule the conservatives who still have the majority of votes in the prime soviet, control the army and so on. I am pretty sure that Gorbachev will return now. I guess that probably the next step will be that the president of the SU will be elected by the people as it has been already done in the russian republic. Nobody can be sure, whether Gorbachev will win the election. Before the coup he would almost for certain lost it against Jelzin or Schewardnadse. But now ? The task to consolidate SU is too big for one person, and the group of trustworthy politicians there is quite small. Gorbachev may take the chance and get rid of some chains of the past. However, the time of making compromises with the conservatives is probably over. >If this coup has only one positive effect, it will be the fact that we >are moving into the post-Gorbachev era. Whether he will resign or return, Germany will always acknowledge what he has done. You may call it Gorbimania :-), I consider it a valid expression of thankfulness. Olaf Schlueter, Sandkuhle 4-6, 2300 Kiel, FRG, Toppoint Mailbox e.V. olaf@tpki.toppoint.de, schlut@oski.toppoint.de, ...!unido!tpki.toppoint.de!olaf "Wenn Sie sich nicht fuer Frauen interessieren - wir verkaufen auch gebrauchte Autos." N.N. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:09:50 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:09:32 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:45:56 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken!sun-barr!apple!ig!relay.eu.net!conrad From: conrad@relay.eu.net (Conrad Longmore) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Contacting the News People & Local Media Message-Id: <17870.9108212147@tharr.uucp> Date: 21 Aug 91 20:47:13 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Organization: Public Usenet Access Lines: 11 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I passed this information off to the British Foreign Office :-) Although it's blown over, we don't really want to place the link at risk. I know some journos too.. maybe it's safe to tell them now. :-) -- // Conrad Longmore / Uucp: ..!ukc!axion!tharr!conrad / Owner of a 2CV // // Bedford College / Janet: tharr!conrad @ uk.ac.ukc / Owner of a 2CV // //-----------------/ Or try: conrad @ tharr.uucp / Much better than a // // ** T H A R R ** /---------------------------------/ Owner of a Sky TV // // +44 234 841503 / Free access to Usenet in the UK /--------------------// From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:10:30 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:10:11 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:46:03 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!uunet!munnari.oz.au!manuel!csc2.anu.edu.au!cmf851 From: cmf851@csc2.anu.edu.au (Albert Langer) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Putsch or coup? Message-Id: <1991Aug21.221546.3250@newshost.anu.edu.au> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:15:46 GMT References: <12593@ncar.ucar.edu> <38372@mimsy.umd.edu> Sender: news@newshost.anu.edu.au Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University, Canberra, Australia. Lines: 118 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <38372@mimsy.umd.edu> biow@cs.umd.edu (Christopher Biow) writes: >Either word applies, but I'm going to continue to use "putsch," "junta," >and, at Albert's suggestion, "fascist" to identify the perpetrators >of this action. These words have more propaganda value, especially >in the Soviet Union, whose people carry a reflexive hatred of all >things Nazi. Normally I don't go in for euphemistic propaganda, but >here I'll use it shamelessly. And the hard liners of the CPSU have >progressed to the point where the political extremes become identical. Actually "fascist" is not just my suggestion, though I would be happy to take credit for it, but the term used by demonstrators against the coup in the Soviet Union itself. It isn't a matter of euphemistic propaganda or of "political extremes become identical" but a more accurate characterization of the actual politics of these people who call themselves "Communists" (remember the Nazis called themselves the "German National Socialist Workers Party"). The western mass media has only recently begun to adopt the terminology long accepted within the Soviet Union itself, where pro-western democrats are called "left wing" and the Brezhnevite types are called "right wing". When you consider that the bourgeois democrats are about as left-wing as their idols like Margaret Thatcher and George Bush, you get a real appreciation of how VERY "right wing" their opponents can be. In China too, the Tien An men protestors called Teng Hsiao-ping's regime "fascist". (BTW When the pro-Moscow "Portuguese Communist Party" tried to stage a putsch after the collapse of Portuguese fascism they were widely labelled as "social-fascist"). I got a real kick out of watching former CIA chief George Bush denouncing the "right-wing reactionary coup" and emoting about democracy and people's power. I haven't enjoyed the show so much since Nixon had to crawl to Peking :-) I just LOVE the way the mass media and Western heads of Government enthuse over mass movements bringing down "reactionary regimes" through action on the streets. They sang a different tune when similar mass action on the streets overthrew de Gaulle's Government in France and helped defeat U.S. aggression against Vietnam in the late 1960s and early 1970s. No doubt they will sing a different tune, later in the 1990s, when people in the West, just like those in the East, resort to mass action against a ruling class that offers nothing but economic crisis and decay. Of course it suits anti-Communists in the West to call those regimes "Communist" and "hardline" more often than they admit to them being "right-wing" (and in fact it was quite surprising for Bush to make that admission). One can hardly blame anti-Communists for taking advantage of the fact that these fascist thugs DO dress up in red stars and hammer and sickle emblems and claim to be Communist. But the pictures of the wall tumbling in Berlin, and workers and students burning armoured personnel carriers in Peking and crowds overthrowing dictatorships from Poland and Czechoslovakia to the Soviet Union, will be remembered far better than the anti-Communist propaganda, when people finally start to do something about mass unemployment etc. >What I am most concerned is that, assuming the junta succeed in >taking control, neither the Soviet people nor the world forget >just how evil these people are. Remember that Lenin and Stalin >were admired by many in the West, who found all manner >of excuses for their evil. It is understandable that most democrats in the Soviet Union hate Lenin, Stalin and Communism bitterly, since their oppressors are said to be Leninists, Stalinists and Communists. But as I have argued in another message, they will have to act with at least some of the ruthlessness of Lenin and Stalin to SUPPRESS their opponents if they want an end to the slavish legacy of servility that has allowed such creeps as the Brezhnevites to stultify the nations of the former Tsarist empire. Before calling that "evil", check out what kind of forcible measures English speaking peoples resorted to under democratic leaders like Abraham Lincoln - some half a million dead so that "Government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish from this earth". Actually the Soviet junta are no more Leninists, Stalinists or Communists than the democrats are. Perhaps the Albanian regime could be said to at least PRETEND to be folowers of Lenin and Stalin but NONE of the fascist junta members in the Soviet Union, nor the leaders of any of the other countries of Eastern Europe that were overthrown recently even made that pretence. They ALL openly renounced Leninism, declared Stalin to be a criminal mass murderer and described themselves as "social democrats" (the sworn enemies of Communism). The regimes that collapsed recently were the regimes that OVERTHREW Stalinism in the mid-1950s. (Likewise the wimpy pseudo-leftists in the west that sometimes apologized for those regimes even though not consistently supporting them, bear no resemblance to genuinely left politics). >There are approx. 150,000 citizens of Moscow who appear ready to >lay down their lives in a "futile" effort to stop the putsch. It >is up to us to preserve the memory of what happens. Though we may >have to deal with the facists' government, just as we had to deal >with Stalin, Brezhnev, Andropov, and Mao, we must remember that we are >dealing with truly evil men. How inspiring. They can lay down their lives in a "futile" effort and we can "preserve the memory" while still dealing with the fascists. There is NOTHING "futile" about standing up to fascism and when people do they can WIN. Incidentally, Mao's regime in China never rolled tanks over demonstrators (and yes they WERE faced with a "Tien An men" incident which ultimately undermined their regime, but did NOT react that way). The Maoists suppressed fascists like Teng Hsiao-ping as long as they could. When the Chinese fascists came to power, Teng was cheered as a great "democrat" by the West, but the Maoist characterization of him as a fascist proved to be more accurate. Checkout the political history of the Soviet fascist junta now overthrown and you will find that they were ALL Khruschevites hailed by the West for overthrowing "Stalinism", just as Teng was hailed for overthrowing "Maoism". From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:11:05 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:10:47 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:46:12 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: The coup, information, and coverage Message-Id: <1991Aug21.221854.7425@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:18:54 GMT References: <35056@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug19.235958.20099@Veritas.COM> Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 20 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article reynolds@park.bu.edu (John Reynolds) writes: >Oleg> No, it could not be averted by economic bribes. The coup seems to be by >Wouldn't it have been impossible even to have CONCEIVED a coup attempt >if Gorbachev had, for example, returned from the G7 conference with >solid offers of economic aid? It appears from all I have heard that the major reason for the coup was the impending signing of the "9+1" treaty, which would have effectively dissolved the territoral and political unity of USSR. Also, keep in mind that the staggering economic disarray in USSR was deliberately precipitated by the old system's functionaries responsible for the goods and produce distribution network. The infusions of money and goods would have been just as ineffective and unfelt by the masses as the aid given so far. -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:11:44 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:11:27 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Thu, 22 Aug 91 09:46:25 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!spool.mu.edu!caen!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!untvax.bitnet!IH04 From: IH04@untvax.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Reuter reports collapse Message-Id: <01G9NDC2VCZ40006EP@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:31:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 38 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO GORBACHEV REASSERTS CONTROL, SOVIET COUP COLLAPSES By Ron Popeski MOSCOW, Aug 21, Reuter - Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev said he was back in full control on Wednesday after a 60-hour coup by communist hardliners crumbled under popular resistance, and relieved troops returned to barracks. Gorbachev, held prisoner at his Crimean holiday home since Monday's dawn coup, told state television and radio he was back in charge after the Emergency Committee of army, secret police and Communist Party diehards who tried to topple him collapsed. Four of the coup leaders, including Defence Minister Dmitry Yazov and KGB chief Vladimir Kryuchkov, were reported to have flown to Gorbachev's Black Sea dacha, apparently hoping to negotiate, as a state prosecutor launched criminal proceedings against the plotters. Gorbachev, 60, sounding in good health and buoyant, spoke by telephone with Russian President Boris Yeltsin, who spearheaded resistance to the takeover, and U.S. President George Bush. He told them he would fly back to Moscow to resume his duties soon. The tanks and armoured cars which the putschists had ordered into the streets withdrew from Moscow during the day, cheered by pro-democracy demonstrators who had rallied to Yeltsin's call to defy the coup. Soviet television said Gorbachev had declared "that he is in full control of the situation and has restored contact with the country, broken off as a result of the adventurist actions of a group of state officials." Thousands of protesters defending the besieged Russian parliament building had repulsed overnight attempts by light tanks to smash through barricades outside the building, pelting them with stones and petrol bombs. At least three civilians were killed in the clashes. The coup, which muzzled the press and threatened to roll back Gorbachev's perestroika democratic reforms, failed due to a mixture of the extent of public opposition, apparent divisions within the security forces and the key failure to silence Yeltsin. The outspoken Russian leader, who quit the Communist Party last year, was first to announce that the coup had failed and its leaders were trying to flee by plane. He called for their arrest. Hours later, Tass news agency reported that parliament had reinstated Gorbachev and declared the coup illegal. The state of emergency declared on Monday and the curfew imposed unsuccessfully on Tuesday were both lifted. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:12:22 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:12:00 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:15:43 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!ig!untvax.bitnet!IH04 From: IH04@untvax.bitnet Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: TASS post-coup analysis Message-Id: <01G9NDG7FTC40006EP@vaxb.acs.unt.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:35:00 GMT Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 78 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO ANALYSIS: PROBLEMS FROM BEFORE COUP STILL DEMAND ACTION BY TASS political observer Sergei Kolesnikov MOSCOW (AUG. 21) TASS - It seems that time for a comprehensive estimation of the recent developments has not come yet, since the events go on. However, the analysis of the latest reports enables a conclusion that the attempt of unconstitutional removal of Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev and the introduction of a state of emergency has failed, although the threat of dramatic development of events has not gone and there are no grounds for euphoria. Many questions still wait for their answers, primarily the one who is to blame for what has happened. But if one thinks of the reasons for such a sharp turn in the history of perestroika, the picture is quite clear. Most complicated problems, the society faced when overcoming a prolonged crisis, still remain. The problems include a grave situation in the economy, living through a period of transition to market relations, interethnic discord, polysemous processes in political and social spheres and a high level of social tension. The solution of these problems on the way of democratic development, on the basis of political centrism, to which President Gorbachev is adherent, is the only possibility to overcome the crisis. Unfortunately, ultra-radicals of both right and left wings could not and, to my mind, cannot even now understand this. Both opposing sides, each of which roused the other's ambitions, forced the situation. As a result, "a critical mass" appeared at one of the poles and an explosion came. That is the general scheme of events that preceded the attempt to remove the Soviet president from power. A vivid illustration to this became the attitude of the right and left wings to the Union Treaty, which was to come into force on August 20. The date of unconstitutional actions was not accidental. The treaty would considerably strengthen the new political reality, the still fragile concord in society and create a basis for progress and the expansion of economic and political space of the Union. But this would mean a farewell to out-dated illusions of unitarianism. The events of August 19 became an attempt to save the passing power system with the help of military force. However, it's not excluded that the authors and makers of the coup proceeded from, as they thought, good intentions to overcome the crisis. Why did the attempt to change the character of the country's development fail? Certainly, a great role in this was played by the decisive stand of people's deputies of the USSR and Union republics, active measures of the Russian leadership and the support of thousands of people, who stood up to defend democratic achievements. An important factor is that the very society has changed a lot over the perestroika years. These quality changes do not allow seeds of extremes to grow, and raise barriers in the way of the use of force by those who want to turn the history backward. Certainly, there is no and cannot be guarantees that some unexpectedness are not waiting for us on the way to renovation. However, the recent events give grounds to optimism. What should be done in the nearest future? First of all, constitutional functions of the lawful head of the state -- President Mikhail Gorbachev -- should be restored on a full scale. The rights of the supreme commander of the Soviet Armed Forces should belong to him and him only. It is Gorbachev and nobody else who should enjoy all the power within the authority granted to him by the Soviet Constitution. Another important thing, to my mind, is that during the "rehabilitation" period and the exit from the stress regime of the state of emergency, we cannot allow emotions to overwhelm and extremism of ones to be replaced by a "mirror" ultra-radicalism of the other wing. Lessons of the August Crisis should serve as a severe warning. A special theme is the stand of the West. The world community was practically unanimous in its negative attitude to the introduction of the state of emergency. Specific measures have been taken to curb the business cooperation that just began to develop. However, one cannot help thinking if those who were slow to help Gorbachev in carrying out the reforms also have grounds to take upon themselves at least a part of the guilt for the recent developments. Did not some measures on "supplementary arming" taken in the West feed conservative forces' speculations and their pressure on the Soviet president? It seems that the best way to overcome the crisis will be an activization of not only moral but also, based on mutual benefit, material support to democratic reforms in the Soviet Union on behalf of the West and a coordinated movement towards the lowering of armaments level. The lessons of the three August days should become a subject of a serious analysis and a basis for practical conclusions in this sphere as well. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:12:59 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:12:40 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:16:24 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!rice!hsdndev!cmcl2!pluto!alan From: alan@pluto.dss.com (Alan Warwick) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet Subject: Future of the Soviet Union Keywords: USSR Future Message-Id: <4450@pluto.dss.com> Date: 21 Aug 91 21:27:18 GMT Followup-To: poster Organization: Datability, Carlstadt, NJ Lines: 13 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO What do people think will be the future for the Soviet Union ? From my American position I hope only for democracy and freedom for the people. It seems to me that reinstating Gorbachov is not such a great step forward since he is still a communist party man. What is needed is a clean break with the past - a democratic revolution to setup a new democratic order. Right now seems like the best time for any republic to break away - Do you think any will ? -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Alan Warwick Datability Incorporated | | alan@doc.dss.com Carlstadt, NJ | +-------------HELP !!! My PC has crashed and I can't boot up------------------+ From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:13:37 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:13:19 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:17:02 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!olivea!oliveb!veritas!oleg From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Radio Moscow sounds strange tonite Message-Id: <1991Aug21.224058.7924@Veritas.COM> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:40:58 GMT References: <20802526@1991Aug20.054723.703@anasaz> <1483700012@cdp> Organization: VERITAS Software Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1483700012@cdp> rbernstein@cdp.UUCP writes: >I think the ``normal'' voice you are referring to is Vladimir Posner, >originally from New York, who was the principal voice for many years; >he resigned in protest several months ago. Posner was on Tue, 8/21, Nightline. He was at the ABC's Moscow headqarters and was his usual smooth, sarcastic, eloquent self. -- DISCLAMMER: I speak for myself only, unless explicitly indicated otherwise. Oleg Kiselev oleg@veritas.com VERITAS Software ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg (408)727-1222x586 From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:14:47 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:14:29 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:19:16 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!orion.oac.uci.edu!ucivax!song From: song@berault.ics.uci.edu (Xiping Song) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: coup seems to be over Message-Id: <28B2FBE6.7615@ics.uci.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 23:48:54 GMT References: <1991Aug21.133103.16837@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> <1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com> Reply-To: song@ics.uci.edu (Xiping Song) Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS Lines: 21 Nntp-Posting-Host: berault.ics.uci.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.204535.21315@cbnewsk.att.com> markg@cbnewsk.att.com (mark.r.gibaldi) writes: >In article <1991Aug21.141153.18266@cc.tut.fi> kapa@ee.tut.fi (Kankaala Kari) writes: >> > >The other two major causes of the coup failure (in my opinion) would >seem to be the very talented Political manuvering done by Yeltsin, and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > >Mark R. Gibaldi >BELL LABS >Internet: mrg@cblph.att.com or 70531,1170.compuserve.com >CompuServe : 70531,1170 Can you be more specific about this? I am not very impressed with what Yeltsin have done in this coup. I think that he is just lucky. The coup leaders are too weak. If the coup leaders were really united and determined to win, he would have been killed or arrested. Do you remember that, Yeltsin told Majors that "I think that I do not have much time left!" in yesterday(?) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:15:24 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:15:05 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:22:01 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!sics.se!fuug!nntp.hut.fi!nntp!pjt From: pjt@vipunen.hut.fi (Pekka J Taipale) Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 08:32:27 GMT References: <35061@hydra.gatech.EDU> <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> Sender: usenet@nntp.hut.fi (Usenet pseudouser id) Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.soviet,alt.activism.d Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland Lines: 28 In-Reply-To: galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com's message of 21 Aug 91 22:36:42 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: vipunen.hut.fi Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article <1991Aug21.223642.1821@dsd.es.com> galt@scratchy.dsd.es.com (Greg Alt - Perp) writes: >One interesting thing that I noticed is that Bush has been praising Yeltsin, >saying that Yeltsin stopped the coup. He has yet to praise the Russian people >who are the real reason Gorbachev is back. Leaders like to think that the >only important people are the leaders, but in this case it was the millions >of people who opposed the coup that should be praised the most. Also, the >reports that the coup "collapsed" are a little annoying... It was SMASHED by >the people... Of course, the support of the Russian People for democracy was the key factor in overthrowing the coup. But I 'm pretty sure that if there had not been a charismatic leader such as Yeltsin, to take responsibility, to claim leadership, to make convincing speeches, to have a concrete place for the masses to defend (the Russian Federation parlament house), I doubt the resistance to the coup would have been succesful. Masses on the streets are no good if they have no goals, no coordination, no feel of legal and moral righteousness. Yeltsin provided these. We could argue over this forever, but I think that both the Russian people AND it's democratically elected representants, namely Yeltsin and the Russian federation's parlament, were essential in bringing legal leadership back to USSR. -- Pekka Taipale pjt@vipunen.hut.fi From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:15:58 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:15:41 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:22:48 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au!tym From: tym@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au (Tim MacKenzie) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of the Coup) Message-Id: Date: 21 Aug 91 23:54:28 GMT References: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> Sender: news@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU Lines: 49 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin). It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free. Either the men who were (apparently) organising the Coup were rather disorganised, or there were other organisers who intended the Coup to fail in order to boost their (inter)national standing. bilaniuk@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Nykolai Bilaniuk) writes: [...] >Some of the strange things about the exercise are these: >- Why didn't they grab both Gorbachev and Yeltsin before announcing the coup, > and kill Gorbachev with a faked heart attack? >- Why did they allow telephone, electric service, and other utilities to > continue to the Russian republic's parliament when it was under siege, > thus giving Yeltsin a tremendous propaganda boost? >- Why shut down the anti-coup, anti-imperialist Baltic broadcasts but > not the anti-coup Moscow Echo radio, which was not overtly anti-imperial? >- Why with Yakovlev's resignation and announcement of an impending > coup did Gorbachev not act against the conspiracy preemptively, > choosing instead to go to Crimea on vacation? Gorbachev certainly > must have known something was afoot but didn't act on it. >These and other factors point out that either the coup conspiracy was >very weak all along, or Gorbachev was the mastermind. I think the >latter theory is unprovable and will remain so (and I don't know whether >I should believe it myself) but it is something to keep in mind. >We may be able to tell a bit about what really happened (real coup >known to Gorbachev vs a Gorbachev led coup) by how the conspirators >are treated after the fact, but such information won't be decisive >for reasons already mentioned (a purge is in Gorby's interest). [...] With many of the worlds leaders (Bush, Major, et al) demanding the restoration of Gorbechev to power, stopping billions in economic aid and preparing for the return of the cold war, what better thing could happen for the USSR than for these demands to be (apparently) heeded. It would appear possible for western aid to now increase (to prevent a recurrence of this event), democracy to lurch forward, and the political terms of Gorbechev and Yeltsin to increase. The reformists will now have an excuse to purge the 'hard-line communists' from the party by claiming they supported the Coup and hence were guilty of treason. -Tim MacKenzie (tym@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:16:37 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:16:19 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:23:45 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!sics.se!fuug!mcsun!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Great Going, Bush! Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 00:38:33 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 15 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 17:35:07 TZONE Barry Shein said: >What I find more amusing is how conservative-chic it had become to >praise Gorby and for the conservatives to take credit for everything >going on over there... > >...But the minute things went wrong, BLAME IT ON THE "LIBERALS"! > >Now that the coup is over and has ended (hopefully) happily is that >the "liberal's fault" also? No, now the conservatives around here will >try to reel it all back. > >how f***ing transparent. > Gee, a little touchy about wearing the scarlet "L", huh? :{) From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:17:15 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:16:53 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:24:50 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi!uoft02.utoledo.edu!csupp From: csupp@uoft02.utoledo.edu Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Coup Timeline request! Message-Id: <1991Aug21.171749.4648@uoft02.utoledo.edu> Date: 21 Aug 91 22:17:48 GMT Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services Lines: 18 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO Hello, I would like to thank those who pointed out other newsgroups regarding the coup. I would also like to ask if anyone would like to work together and create a timeline of the events in Mosow and around the CCCP. I would like too get some info on the gang of eight (personal and professional) along with articles and releases by Interfax, media reports (television and radio) by both the American and foreign press corps. Some of the problems are with translations but I think most important documents (Yeltsyn's speech and along with Soviet news agencies) are already translated. If anyone would like to contribute please mail me or post to this group. Regards, Don Kasprzak UToledo From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:17:49 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:17:30 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:25:17 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!sgi!cdp!ckruger From: cdp!ckruger Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Any chance people could just shut u Message-Id: <1483700013@cdp> Date: 21 Aug 91 17:57:00 GMT References: <17389713@1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.be> Lines: 15 Nf-Id: #R:1991Aug21.041807.14814@walter.be:-1738971384:cdp:1483700013:000:553 Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!ckruger Aug 21 10:57:00 1991 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In response to Mike O'Dell who states ... >Frankly, folks, the people in Moscow don't give a crap about >your opinions right now. How about stop wastinh everyone's >bandwidth and just listen to history unfolding?? They do care, and have even expressed thanks for the expressions of solidarity that the western world has sent via all routes including email and computer networked conferences such as this one. I for one have received a thank you from one group in Leningrad for a message that I sent! Cynthia [In solidarity with the Soviet people] From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:18:26 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:18:08 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:25:26 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!sgi!cdp!christic From: cdp!christic Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: YELTSIN EXPLAINS WHY COUP FAILED Message-Id: <1483700014@cdp> Date: 21 Aug 91 19:13:00 GMT Lines: 75 Nf-Id: #N:cdp:1483700014:000:3185 Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!christic Aug 21 12:13:00 1991 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO From: Subject: YELTSIN EXPLAINS WHY COUP FAILED /* Written 11:45 am Aug 21, 1991 by christic in cdp:glasnost.news */ /* ---------- "YELTSIN EXPLAINS WHY COUP FAILED" ---------- */ ------------------------------------------------------------------- YELTSIN EXPLAINS WHY COUP FAILED Christic Institute, Wednesday, August 21, 1991 Here is a brief summary of today's broadcast of Vremya, the Soviet nightly news program, carried live by CNN at 2 p.m. EDT. Vremya said President Gorbachev is now in complete control and is returning to Moscow. Russian President Boris Yeltsin told the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation this morning that the coup d'etat failed because the Tula paratroop division, which was ordered to seize the Federation's office building, chose to disobey the order. Yeltsin also praised the thousands of Muscovites who surrounded the building. Deputies who spoke after Yeltsin's address urged the people to avoid euphoria and remain on guard against future attempts to seize power. A meeting of the Presidium of the Union Supreme Soviet (the Federal parliament) issued a three-part declaration: 1. The de facto removal of Mikhail Gorbachev as Soviet President is null and void. 2. The Presidium demanded that Acting President Gennady Yenayev nullify all decrees issues by the "Committee on the State of Emergency." 3. The next plenary session of the Supreme Soviet should establish a committee to investigate the legal responsibility of those involved in the attempted coup. The prosecutor-general of the USSR has initiated legal proceedings against those responsible for unconstitutional acts. Supreme Soviet Chairman Anatoly Lyukyanov (a long-time friend and ally of Gorbachev who seemed to support the coup) did not chair the meeting of the Presidium because he was en route to Crimea to meet with the President. Members of the Presidium said that since Monday morning their offices had been flooded by telephone calls and telegrams from officials throughout the country demanding that no steps be taken outside the constitution. CNN now reports that Gorbachev's return to the capital is imminent. A Soviet media analyst intervied by CNN said that Soviet television broadcasts yesterday showed there were divisions within the leadership of the attempted coup. Despite the emergency committee's total control over mass media, television still reported bulletins about strikes, demonstrations and the protests of Western governments against the coup. President Bush has spoken to Gorbachev in the Crimea. According to Bush, Gorbachev expressed his thanks to the people of the United States for their support. Bush said the leaders of the Ukraine and Kazakhstan will remain with Gorbachev in Moscow. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Lang 151251507 CHRISTIC telex Christic Institute christic PeaceNet 202-529-0140 BBS christic@igc.org Internet 202-797-8106 voice uunet!pyramid!cdp!christic UUCP 202-462-5138 fax cdp!christic%labrea@stanford Bitnet From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:19:00 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:18:43 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:26:03 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!forney.berkeley.edu!jbuck From: jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of the Coup) Message-Id: <1991Aug22.005335.520@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 00:53:35 GMT References: <1991Aug21.144315.29602@fs7.ece.cmu.edu> Sender: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 31 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article , tym@dibbler.cs.monash.edu.au (Tim MacKenzie) writes: |> It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are |> actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin). |> It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and |> extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free. |> |> Either the men who were (apparently) organising the Coup were rather |> disorganised, or there were other organisers who intended the Coup to |> fail in order to boost their (inter)national standing. Oh, bullshit. If Gorby and Yeltsin organized the coup, and the whole thing was a fake, please tell me how they recruited the committee. How did they get a group of men at the very top of the bureaucracy to, in effect, toss away their careers for the life in prison or death by firing squad that probably awaits them? While all the newscasters and even the reports from the Soviet Union portrayed the leaders of the coup as monsters, Stalinists, brutal men, clearly the results don't back that up. They were bureaucrats who wanted to preserve their power and they didn't have the stomach to do what would have been necessary to win. My suspicion is that they read Gorby's polls and decided that the man was so unpopular that they'd be welcomed as saviors and take over without a fight. They miscalculated (and that's an understatement). -- Joe Buck jbuck@galileo.berkeley.edu {uunet,ucbvax}!galileo.berkeley.edu!jbuck From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:19:38 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:19:21 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:26:24 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!ugle.unit.no!nuug!ifi.uio.no!kth.se!eru!bloom-beacon!mintaka!yale!yale.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cunixa.cc.columbia.edu!dmz1 From: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: radio moscow Message-Id: <1991Aug22.003740.13381@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Date: 22 Aug 91 00:37:40 GMT Sender: usenet@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (The Network News) Reply-To: dmz1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Daniel M Zabetakis) Organization: Columbia University Lines: 14 Nntp-Posting-Host: cunixa.cc.columbia.edu Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO I hope this isn't a FAQ, but can anyone give me a clue about the broadcast schedule for radio moscow on the shortwave? I'd like to know the times and bands where it is broadcast. I'm in the east coast of the US, and I'd most like times that are night for myself. It's been a while since I have tuned in RM, and so I'd like some help if anyone has a schedule. DanZ This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions, or narratives contained herein are not necessarily true, and do not necessarily represent the views of any particular person. From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:20:16 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:19:54 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:26:42 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!news.funet.fi!fuug!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!apple!ig!indycms.bitnet!IQTI400 From: IQTI400@indycms.bitnet (vertigo flutter) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of the Coup) Message-Id: Date: 22 Aug 91 00:43:04 GMT References: Sender: daemon@presto.ig.com Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" Lines: 12 Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 23:54:28 GMT Tim MacKenzie said: >It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are >actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin). >It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and >extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free. > Weird because he was surrounded by so many people? The troops et al knew any moves they made would be circulated worldwide. I think they'd have captured Yeltsin if they could have conveniently, but /c so many witnesses around, they'd have had to really gotten bloody and then a guaranteed civil war would have occurred... From cri.dk!news Fri Aug 23 03:20:52 1991 remote from ddc Received: by sandes.cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 03:20:32 +0200 Received: by cri.dk; Fri, 23 Aug 91 01:27:17 +0200 Path: cri.dk!dkuug!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!wangf From: wangf@unixg.ubc.ca (Frank Wang) Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet Subject: Re: Did Gorby and Yeltsin organise the Coup? (Was: Aftermath of Message-Id: <1991Aug22.030836.21320@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: 22 Aug 91 03:08:36 GMT References: Sender: news@unixg.ubc.ca (Usenet News Maintenance) Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada Lines: 17 Nntp-Posting-Host: chilko.ucs.ubc.ca Apparently-To: ns@sandes.cri.dk Status: RO In article "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" writes: >On Wed, 21 Aug 1991 23:54:28 GMT Tim MacKenzie said: >>It seems to me that the people who are gaining most out of this coup are >>actually those who it was apparently against (Gorby and Yeltsin). >>It appears to be strange that neither of these men were harmed, and >>extremely weird that Yeltsin was left free. >> > >Weird because he was surrounded by so many people? The troops et al >knew any moves they made would be circulated worldwide. I think they'd >have captured Yeltsin if they could have conveniently, but /c so >many witnesses around, they'd have had to really gotten bloody and >then a guaranteed civil war would have occurred... They learned from the Tian An Meng event. They knew if they did in a bloody way, the whole world will be against them. Life will be so bad even they succeeded.